Musk's problem is his base comes out of Trump supporters. He is from conspiracy land as well, so people protesting are against Trump and against Elon. No way can he capture any area of Trump land as he is even more amoral than Trump and you need the "church" people in your tent. Like it or lump it, Trump has gotten church people to leave the teachings of Jesus and they believe he is some type of Messiah. He thanks and praises them, and they more than return the favor. Elon is scientific, which they hate and amoral, he spends no time courting church people so they can't pretend he's fore them.
Yeah, this is very true. When his son transitioned he began to lose his shit, stopped cosplaying as "nonpartisan" to promote Tesla and he and his companies have been in a doom spiral ever since. He huffs his own farts from a scuba tank; he turned Twitter into a wingnut cesspool to keep his own voice from being challenged and just turned Grok into Mecha Hitler, LOL. Like the End Times Christians Trump has courted, in his own way he's a messianic prophet of doom, only the Rapture he awaits is the AI Singularity and the colonization of Mars. This ultra-elitist and thoroughly secular vision of the future only has appeal for fellow megawealthy tech bros and their small cult of superfans and wannabes.
But just as his rockets keep blowing up and he doesn't seem to care, just as his Robotaxi rollout was a joke (he thinks the LIDAR that Waymo uses is "lame"), Elon seems quite gleeful about taking people down with him on his doom spiral. You're absolutely right; his only political appeal is with the conspirazoids in the MAGA cult, but his obsessive Epstein focus has the opportunity to do real damage to MAGA turnout and I'm here for it ;)
What I can't understand is this notion that the Democrats have supposedly moved "too far to the left." So much of the current Democratic platform would be things St. Ronnie himself strongly advocated, including:
A) strengthening and expanding NATO
B) opposing Russian expansionism
C) supporting free trade
D) bipartisan legislation
E) appointing qualified people to their positions (James Watt excepted)
F) support for public broadcasting
G) support for Roe v. Wade (he paid lip service to the evangelicals, but never lifted a finger to try to overturn it)
I just don't get it. What's so fucking "radical" about the current Democratic platform, exactly? In Western Europe, the American Democratic Party's platform would be considered center-right.
You have to put this in context. Democrats loathed Reagan with the fire of 1000 suns when he was in office; what you're seeing is how Carter and Clinton pulled the party to the right and this hasn't been helpful either for the country or the party, which is why you're seeing Bernie, AOC and now Zohran Mamdani rising up through the cracks of Republican Lite.
The social issues that the Reagan GOP always opposed have simply gained visibility and acceptance and the Democratic support for that (which was always there) is what makes us look "too far to the left" in this newer context. Gay rights was just beginning to get off the ground and it took Reagan's entire term to get the GOP to see AIDS as a medical condition and not the price of a moral failure. Trans rights wasn't a thing in the Gipper's day.
Reagan's appointee Sandra Day O'Connor is often seen as preserving Roe, but her decisions also legitimated the rise of abortion restrictions which ultimately led to Dobbs. What we're seeing with Trump is only the culmination of the Christian right wish list (defunding PBS, NPR and public education, etc.) which was very much alive during Reagan's two terms (and inflamed during Bush and son), and stopped thanks to Democratic opposition.
Great discussion as always, Rick. I think John Avalon is a very smart guy, very well informed on history and economics, but I also think he's a bit of an ideologue (a centrist ideologue) cosplaying as non-ideological. I disagree with several of his priors.
First, you can't conflate temperament with ideology. Some people are natural risk takers, like to think big and let the chips fall where they may, when their big thinking will address the chips that fell badly. And there are people who are temperamentally risk averse, who worry about the unintended consequences and second-order effects of big changes and prefer to get consensus on everything before moving forward. These sorts of people can be on the left or the right. Taking a little from the Column A of the risk takers and a little from the Column B of the risk averse does not equate to "centrism." It equates to a mushy and perpetually confused middle.
As flawed as our current two-party system is (and has always been), I don't think the flaw is ideological. I think we sorted into two parties because political ideas are naturally dichotomous. Liberty v equality. Self v society. Civil liberties v the constraints of tradition. Freedom to v freedom from. As perverted as Trump made the GOP, there's a through line from Trump all the way back to the ancient conservatives (Thrasymachus arguing might makes right to Socrates).
It's always amusing to watch self-described centrists try to forge their temperamental ambivalence into a coherent ideology, no more so than the calisthenics they do to try to defend the so-called free market. We can even get them to admit that the market was never "free" to begin with. Yet they're somehow puzzled when stock price replaces value as the measure of a company. Well, pucker my sphincter (I've been looking for an excuse to use that phrase, LOL).
It's like they don't understand that freedom and competition are antithetical. Competition can only happen supported by decidedly un-free things like rules. It's why there isn't an Anarchist Baseball League. It's why Calvinball is such an extremely funny illustration of this. So if the logic of the market isn't to compete but to profit, that "competition" is simply an annoyance needed to provide a justification for making a profit, then of course stock buybacks will soar, stock prices and quarterly bottom lines become everything and sustainability, economic let alone environmental, becomes a wan afterthought. This is the ineluctable logic of the marketplace.
That's why we need another FDR, not another Al Gore trying to "reinvent" government.
You elucidate brilliantly..but being what I think of myself as an environmentalist I would've thought Al Gore perfect...unfortunately most people don't "get it"...Time will tell...and IS telling...with all our theories and justifications we will still FALL to nature in the end..no matter the belief system you follow...so it just doesn't matter... Thanks BOB...
Vote all Republicans out. They've shown their level of committment to the Constitution and the country. No backbone all the Trump years. Fu-gettabout it.
Oh, come now. You've never mispronounced anyone's name? Jesus. We're talking about the difference between an "m" and an "n" . . . in a Farsi name. Not only that, we're talking about someone who brand-new on the scene, not the Democratic nominee for the presidency.
We're all human. We all make mistakes. All I'm saying is lighten up a bit. The left is always, perpetually eating its own. This guy is on our side. No need to crucify him for (slightly) mispronouncing someone's name. Just make him aware of it and move on.
I'm not wild about Jon Avlon to begin with, but it seemed to me he may have been deliberately mispronouncing Mamdani's name. He's well educated, he's on Stephanie Ruhle's show all the time; he should be able to read and pronounce and m as an m and not an n.
You and I agree - but it is not crucifying a person to say it’s not right or racist to mispronounce a name. I do it myself all the time. I just try to learn and do better. Hope he’s pronouncing it correctly now is all 👍🏻 it’s simply respect
Agree. It's like when people insist on putting the emphasis on "Kam*a*la" on the second "a" instead of pronouncing it as "K*a*mala. People still do it (in particular, those who watch Fox News) that even after they did a whole skit presentation at the Democratic National Convention explaining how to pronounce it.
Great informative conversation and it's a "delight" ( can I say that?) hearing Logical economic theories being examined...even though the country is being thrashed by the felon and his regime. I want to go back to this kind of normal... It encourages me more than you know...Let's get back on track!!! Thank you!!
Musk got a taste for power while working in the WH and wants to keep that going, apparently forgetting about the part where he also became wildly unpopular. He should have learned his lesson in Wisconsin - he can't buy and sell anyone or anything he wants.
Geesh, the "park" I grew up in!!! The place we set our ducks loose in 1953...The place that we went to run and play...WHO would've thought?? LA??? There used to be a GREAT Mexican Restaurant near there...where I had my first Albondigas soup!! Poor people!!!! LA was the center of my universe...DIVERSITY ABOUNDS!!! Best Museums, great restaurants, USC, and WATTS!!! So many memories...Dodger Stadium, so many GREAT PEOPLE...no matter what their ethnic backgrounds!!! I spit on the felon's regime...
Musk's problem is his base comes out of Trump supporters. He is from conspiracy land as well, so people protesting are against Trump and against Elon. No way can he capture any area of Trump land as he is even more amoral than Trump and you need the "church" people in your tent. Like it or lump it, Trump has gotten church people to leave the teachings of Jesus and they believe he is some type of Messiah. He thanks and praises them, and they more than return the favor. Elon is scientific, which they hate and amoral, he spends no time courting church people so they can't pretend he's fore them.
Yeah, this is very true. When his son transitioned he began to lose his shit, stopped cosplaying as "nonpartisan" to promote Tesla and he and his companies have been in a doom spiral ever since. He huffs his own farts from a scuba tank; he turned Twitter into a wingnut cesspool to keep his own voice from being challenged and just turned Grok into Mecha Hitler, LOL. Like the End Times Christians Trump has courted, in his own way he's a messianic prophet of doom, only the Rapture he awaits is the AI Singularity and the colonization of Mars. This ultra-elitist and thoroughly secular vision of the future only has appeal for fellow megawealthy tech bros and their small cult of superfans and wannabes.
But just as his rockets keep blowing up and he doesn't seem to care, just as his Robotaxi rollout was a joke (he thinks the LIDAR that Waymo uses is "lame"), Elon seems quite gleeful about taking people down with him on his doom spiral. You're absolutely right; his only political appeal is with the conspirazoids in the MAGA cult, but his obsessive Epstein focus has the opportunity to do real damage to MAGA turnout and I'm here for it ;)
What I can't understand is this notion that the Democrats have supposedly moved "too far to the left." So much of the current Democratic platform would be things St. Ronnie himself strongly advocated, including:
A) strengthening and expanding NATO
B) opposing Russian expansionism
C) supporting free trade
D) bipartisan legislation
E) appointing qualified people to their positions (James Watt excepted)
F) support for public broadcasting
G) support for Roe v. Wade (he paid lip service to the evangelicals, but never lifted a finger to try to overturn it)
I just don't get it. What's so fucking "radical" about the current Democratic platform, exactly? In Western Europe, the American Democratic Party's platform would be considered center-right.
You have to put this in context. Democrats loathed Reagan with the fire of 1000 suns when he was in office; what you're seeing is how Carter and Clinton pulled the party to the right and this hasn't been helpful either for the country or the party, which is why you're seeing Bernie, AOC and now Zohran Mamdani rising up through the cracks of Republican Lite.
The social issues that the Reagan GOP always opposed have simply gained visibility and acceptance and the Democratic support for that (which was always there) is what makes us look "too far to the left" in this newer context. Gay rights was just beginning to get off the ground and it took Reagan's entire term to get the GOP to see AIDS as a medical condition and not the price of a moral failure. Trans rights wasn't a thing in the Gipper's day.
Reagan's appointee Sandra Day O'Connor is often seen as preserving Roe, but her decisions also legitimated the rise of abortion restrictions which ultimately led to Dobbs. What we're seeing with Trump is only the culmination of the Christian right wish list (defunding PBS, NPR and public education, etc.) which was very much alive during Reagan's two terms (and inflamed during Bush and son), and stopped thanks to Democratic opposition.
#ETTD baby!!🖕🏼Elon Musk. And in addition 👇🏼
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2C-D-JR2p7Y
Great discussion as always, Rick. I think John Avalon is a very smart guy, very well informed on history and economics, but I also think he's a bit of an ideologue (a centrist ideologue) cosplaying as non-ideological. I disagree with several of his priors.
First, you can't conflate temperament with ideology. Some people are natural risk takers, like to think big and let the chips fall where they may, when their big thinking will address the chips that fell badly. And there are people who are temperamentally risk averse, who worry about the unintended consequences and second-order effects of big changes and prefer to get consensus on everything before moving forward. These sorts of people can be on the left or the right. Taking a little from the Column A of the risk takers and a little from the Column B of the risk averse does not equate to "centrism." It equates to a mushy and perpetually confused middle.
As flawed as our current two-party system is (and has always been), I don't think the flaw is ideological. I think we sorted into two parties because political ideas are naturally dichotomous. Liberty v equality. Self v society. Civil liberties v the constraints of tradition. Freedom to v freedom from. As perverted as Trump made the GOP, there's a through line from Trump all the way back to the ancient conservatives (Thrasymachus arguing might makes right to Socrates).
It's always amusing to watch self-described centrists try to forge their temperamental ambivalence into a coherent ideology, no more so than the calisthenics they do to try to defend the so-called free market. We can even get them to admit that the market was never "free" to begin with. Yet they're somehow puzzled when stock price replaces value as the measure of a company. Well, pucker my sphincter (I've been looking for an excuse to use that phrase, LOL).
It's like they don't understand that freedom and competition are antithetical. Competition can only happen supported by decidedly un-free things like rules. It's why there isn't an Anarchist Baseball League. It's why Calvinball is such an extremely funny illustration of this. So if the logic of the market isn't to compete but to profit, that "competition" is simply an annoyance needed to provide a justification for making a profit, then of course stock buybacks will soar, stock prices and quarterly bottom lines become everything and sustainability, economic let alone environmental, becomes a wan afterthought. This is the ineluctable logic of the marketplace.
That's why we need another FDR, not another Al Gore trying to "reinvent" government.
You elucidate brilliantly..but being what I think of myself as an environmentalist I would've thought Al Gore perfect...unfortunately most people don't "get it"...Time will tell...and IS telling...with all our theories and justifications we will still FALL to nature in the end..no matter the belief system you follow...so it just doesn't matter... Thanks BOB...
Great show guys!
We killed Tesla remember?
People have lost their everlovin’ minds if they think we are all going to forget this freak’s evil behavior - he’s an insane drug addict.
Fuck Elon
Vote all Republicans out. They've shown their level of committment to the Constitution and the country. No backbone all the Trump years. Fu-gettabout it.
There are NO real republicans...only maggots...eating everyone alive...
@Jon Avlon, it's not "Mandami"; it's Mamdani. You said his name incorrectly every time.
It’s racist if you’re wondering
Oh, come now. You've never mispronounced anyone's name? Jesus. We're talking about the difference between an "m" and an "n" . . . in a Farsi name. Not only that, we're talking about someone who brand-new on the scene, not the Democratic nominee for the presidency.
Remember KAMALA???
Yeah, I do. Because in that instance it was obviously deliberate. I honestly do not think that is the case here.
I’m a social worker and I’m not allowed to mispronounce a person’s name. I expect all professionals to do the same please.
We're all human. We all make mistakes. All I'm saying is lighten up a bit. The left is always, perpetually eating its own. This guy is on our side. No need to crucify him for (slightly) mispronouncing someone's name. Just make him aware of it and move on.
I'm not wild about Jon Avlon to begin with, but it seemed to me he may have been deliberately mispronouncing Mamdani's name. He's well educated, he's on Stephanie Ruhle's show all the time; he should be able to read and pronounce and m as an m and not an n.
You and I agree - but it is not crucifying a person to say it’s not right or racist to mispronounce a name. I do it myself all the time. I just try to learn and do better. Hope he’s pronouncing it correctly now is all 👍🏻 it’s simply respect
That’s a good solution!
Agree. It's like when people insist on putting the emphasis on "Kam*a*la" on the second "a" instead of pronouncing it as "K*a*mala. People still do it (in particular, those who watch Fox News) that even after they did a whole skit presentation at the Democratic National Convention explaining how to pronounce it.
EXACTLY!!!
Always a pleasure.
Great informative conversation and it's a "delight" ( can I say that?) hearing Logical economic theories being examined...even though the country is being thrashed by the felon and his regime. I want to go back to this kind of normal... It encourages me more than you know...Let's get back on track!!! Thank you!!
A day later...I finally got to hear the whole discourse...WOW!! Thank you again... It's all been said...
Musk got a taste for power while working in the WH and wants to keep that going, apparently forgetting about the part where he also became wildly unpopular. He should have learned his lesson in Wisconsin - he can't buy and sell anyone or anything he wants.
Musk, just what we need--another antisocial creep.
No South African Nazi party for me, thanks. I don’t like the one we have now.
Geesh, the "park" I grew up in!!! The place we set our ducks loose in 1953...The place that we went to run and play...WHO would've thought?? LA??? There used to be a GREAT Mexican Restaurant near there...where I had my first Albondigas soup!! Poor people!!!! LA was the center of my universe...DIVERSITY ABOUNDS!!! Best Museums, great restaurants, USC, and WATTS!!! So many memories...Dodger Stadium, so many GREAT PEOPLE...no matter what their ethnic backgrounds!!! I spit on the felon's regime...